*please note i deeply value and respect the vegan movement. i am just critical of how humorously it precipitates in online spaces, particularly this one. :)

  • moosetwin@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    12 days ago

    it is especially frustrating coming from a person who would die if they just stopped eating meat (eating disorder), I have mentioned this online and gotten responses from these people saying that they think it would be better for me to starve to death than to eat meat. it makes me depressed to know that some people want me dead

    I am glad that people are able to go vegan but some of you go into a moralistic argument and act like everyone who eats meat is glad about it and gets off on torturing animals

    • Sasha@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      I’m a vegan, and fuck those people.

      I’ve got a medical condition that meant I had to take it fairly slowly just it be sure my body wasn’t going to literally fall apart when I went vegan, luckily I’m doing well (in a few ways I’m actually much better off now, though I’m still scared of falling apart). Medical conditions are valid as hell for not going vegan, I wasn’t aware of how an eating disorder could prevent it but I’ve read a fair bit online now, so thankyou for sharing.

      One of the scariest moments of my life was when my friends and I were publically assaulted by a pair of very large vegan men who didn’t like that we weren’t vegan. I was vego at the time but sure as hell wasn’t going to tell them, people who act like that are an absolute disgrace and make me ashamed to be vegan. Veganism to me comes from a deep sense of empathy, if you can’t feel empathy for other people then you’re not a vegan as far as I’m concerned.

        • Sasha@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          12 days ago

          Haha it was nothing like that, they just sort of came out of nowhere. My city is normally pretty safe, I’ve literally never had another encounter like that in my life.

      • w_l_l_w@lemmy.world
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        12 days ago

        If you’re hurting anyone, outside of combat sports or self defense, you’re not vegan. Those men might have been plant based but certainly not vegan

        • 5C5C5C@programming.dev
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          This has to be the stupidest take on the term “plant based” I’ve ever heard. I swear, “plant based” is just the “No true Scotsman” of vegans… anything that a non-meat-consumer does that a vegan doesn’t like makes them plant based instead of vegan. It’s so asinine and intellectually dishonest.

          Vegan people can be assholes too. Assholes will inevitably exist in any demographic that gets sufficiently large. I have known people who identify as vegans who insist that it’s preferable for humans to die than for non-human animals to die.

          • w_l_l_w@lemmy.world
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            11 days ago

            It’s not that complicated… Plant based = diet Veganism = philosophy

            Can’t really blame you for not knowing as they do get used interchangeably in the media.

            But you can’t just self identify as a person that follows a certain philosophy without actually following it. Vegans avoid cruelty towards animals and humans are animals.

            • 5C5C5C@programming.dev
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              11 days ago

              And what if someone is convinced that acts of cruelty towards some humans is the most effective way to reduce cruelty towards a large number of animals? They might think that you’re not vegan because you’re allowing more cruelty towards animals to exist than they are. I have encountered self-identifying vegans who genuinely think this way.

              • w_l_l_w@lemmy.world
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                I don’t think you can stop cruelty through cruelty. Veganism is about acknowledging every individual and abstaining from exploitation and cruelty towards them. It’s not some sort of utilitarian philosophy where it’s ok sacrifice a small number of individuals for the good of a larger group.

        • spujb@lemmy.cafeOP
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          11 days ago

          this take is being criticized for no true scottsman-ing but it kinda makes a lot of sense, like ‘oh no i hate seeing living creatures harmed let me go punch this guy’??? it seems like maybe those dudes were just looking for an excuse to whack people and if not veganism they would have found some other ideology to abuse

    • Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de
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      12 days ago

      obviously this doesn’t work for everyone, but this is why i’m such a big proponent of meat alternatives

      having stuff like pea protein nuggets fortified with vitamin B12 and whatever else is an actually practical way to reduce meat consumption, if we make it possible to replace meat and barely notice that you’ve done so then everyone but the meat industry wins, which is even more of a win for the rest of us.

    • Freefall@lemmy.world
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      11 days ago

      I have too many other things to worry about, to make myself hate meat. That said, I understand there is terrible shit happening in that industry, most militant vegans I have crossed paths with are wearing an apple watch and Nikes…so, I can’t take them seriously. We all pick our battles. In the end, work harder on making fake meat great. Get on it vegans, fund the research and go to school for it! If I can get my animal proteins and whatever else from a burger thqt I can’t tell came from a lab, I will never buy farmed meat again, just like that, overnight. If you sit in front of a dairy isle with pictures of sad cows, I am going reach past you, get my milk, and forget you exist in 2 isles. A lot of people are not actively against your cause, we just don’t care either way. Be more effective.

  • amotio@lemmy.world
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    12 days ago

    I get vegancirclejerk posts in my feed and in most cases I am not sure if these posts are serious or just making fun of vegans. Most of the time it looks like troll posts. It’s more like a meat-hate cult.

      • Inui [comrade/them]@lemmy.ml
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        Lemmy is too small and the mods too inactive. Most of what you see there is genuinely unironic carnism because bans dont get handed out, not what you normally get with a circlejerk sub.

        • inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world
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          12 days ago

          Hi there!

          I believe the old mods of vegancirclejerk were inactive, I was just recently promoted and hoping to change that perception! I agree, WAY too much unironic carnism is posted there.

          • Inui [comrade/them]@lemmy.ml
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            Great! I think there’s 3 separate vcj comms on different instances all with the same problem, so I’ll be glad if one improves.

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          I think a big problem is that most people who stumble upon posts from Vegancirclejerk are random non-vegans who see it in their feed. Is it even possible to exclude communities from the everything feed on Lemmy?

          It’s a shame because VCJ and VFCJ were my favourite communities on Reddit but the vibe on their Lemmy counterpart is not quite there yet. I just want my cruelty free echo chamber back dammit.

          • lost_faith@lemmy.ca
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            Is it even possible to exclude communities from the everything feed on Lemmy?

            Yes it is, I have blocked several and never see them unless a sister on another instance gains traction

      • amotio@lemmy.world
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        12 days ago

        Yeah seems like it, either way it’s cringe. On one hand these are sicere and that is just too bad for vegan comunity, on the other hand it’s pure trolling - which is just sad.

  • Makeshift@sh.itjust.works
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    12 days ago

    I personally love cheesebreather, bloodmouth, and milk-drinker.

    Bonus points to milk-drinker because that’s not even a term made by vegans to call people coward babies. Play Skyrim and you’ll hear it all over the place!

    Carnist doesn’t count because it’s not technically an insult. It’s just a name for someone that practices carnism. Carnism IS terrible, but the purpose of the word is no different than Christian to Christianity.

    It’s hilarious that carnists get so butthurt about being called what they are though so I enjoy that part.

    • spujb@lemmy.cafeOP
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      I personally love cheesebreather, bloodmouth, and milk-drinker.

      see i just couldn’t keep a straight face if you tried to say those while making eye contact 😭😭

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        10 days ago

        I’m glad accurate discriptors of your lifestyle seem as ridiculous to you as they are!

    • Wolf314159@startrek.website
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      Carnist seems to imply that they eat ONLY meat though. They’re not carnivores, they’re omnivores. It’s on the same level as using the terms pro-abortion and pro-life to describe the two sides of that debate. This kind of name calling of an out group is not too far removed from all the wacky names flat-earthers give to all the rest of us just living here on the globe not being wack-a-doos.

      Using the term butthurt is some straight up 90s era homophobia too. Nice.

        • Codex@lemmy.world
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          12 days ago

          It isn’t. It’s in reference to “having a stick up your ass”, which means being uptight and overly serious. Because they are stiff, as though a firm rod had been run the length of their body.

          People also mistakenly believe that to be a homophobic phrase too. Mind you, there’s a slim distinction here. Telling someone to “shove it up your ass” could be considered homophobic, though I think of it as just rude. I feel like context would matter a lot here.

          The youth today think everything insulting must be a slur of some kind and are obcesse with moral purity.

          • Sop@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            The youth today have nothing to do with it. It’s reactionaries who take a genuine issue (people using actual slurs) and apply it to situations that work in their favour (acting like ‘carnist’ or ‘cishet’ are slurs).

        • curbstickle@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          I can’t find anything except random tweets saying as much, and a medium article behind a paywall saying it isn’t.

          So… I have no idea either.

      • w_l_l_w@lemmy.world
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        From my understanding, carnism is closely related to speciesism. Most people wouldn’t eat dogs or cats, but happily eat chickens, cows and pigs.

    • Sasha@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      I think carnist is a useful word that a lot of people get caught up on. As you say it’s not a pejorative, just a word that describes someone who chooses to eat meat as opposed to carnivore which is a creature that can only eat meat. All humans are omnivores, but not all are carnists.

    • reev@sh.itjust.works
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      12 days ago

      I’ve never interpreted that as an attempt at an insult, what word do you think is more fitting?

      • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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        12 days ago

        Omnivore, maybe? 🤷

        But yeah, pretending that eating meat is an ism IS an insult when coming from an evangelical vegan who considers it morally reprehensible lol

        • alx@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          “carnist” has a different meaning than omnivore. It’s used for people who actively defend what they think is their right to consume flesh.

          • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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            Just like how evangelical vegans actively assert what they think is their right to control the diets and other lifestyle choices of adult humans who haven’t asked them to? 🙄

            • alx@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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              basically the same way we assert the right to tell people to stop using ai, to stop being racist, sexist, transphobic, using planes or heavy cars, giving money to fascists…

              chosing to view animals as resources is not about diet, it’s about power over sentient beings and hierarchy of lives based on species.

            • Bob@feddit.nl
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              It’s quite telling that you’re ready to say “control” to describe people arguing that you shouldn’t use animals as resources, but not to describe what happens to animals. Or if you would use it to describe what happens to animals, that you think nothing untoward of it. You know what I mean? Either controlling is, as you imply, inadmissable and you therefore become vegan because you mustn’t control animals, or controlling is sometimes admissable and you purport carnism.

              • 5C5C5C@programming.dev
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                Also since when is open exchange of ideas and concerns equated with control?

                Am I trying to control you if I suggest that you not leave your tap running in California because fresh water is a precious resource in drought-plagued land?

                Am I trying to control you if I suggest that you reduce your plastic consumption because we have a major microplastic crisis so severe that human babies are being born with plastic already in their body?

                Am I trying to control you if I point out that the modern meat industry is ecologically unsustainable, so you’re going to have to switch to being vegetarian sooner or later since the meat production will literally collapse itself, so you may as well start now before it’s a global crisis?

                If I suggest that you not hit yourself in the head with a hammer, is that me trying to control you, or is that just an act of very basic concern for your well being? And if hitting yourself in the head with a hammer becomes trendy, am I trying to control everyone if I suggest that we shouldn’t be doing that because brain injuries will make us dumber as a society?

                • qarbone@lemmy.world
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                  11 days ago

                  You have to agree that there are at least two types of active, “militant” vegan: the ecological vegan, who focuses on the many global issues arising from the international meat industry, and the meat moralists, who are focused more on the immorality of meat consumption at all.

                  One of those is leaning toward control.

        • door_in_the_face@feddit.nl
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          11 days ago

          Veganism is an -ism as well. You’re getting worked up about a term that, at its core, just means that a person believes it is normal, natural and necessary to eat animals and animal products. Omnivore on the other hand means that you are able to digest and eat all kinds of food. If someone calls you a carnist, then the word itself is about as insulting as using “vegan” to describe vegans. Whatever derogatory meaning “evangelical” vegans put behind it is inferred from context or tone, not the word itself.

          • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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            Veganism is an -ism as well

            But NOT being vegan isn’t. In 99% of cases, it’s not an active choice based on values like veganism and indeed all other isms is.

            Claiming otherwise while also asserting that it’s morally repugnant behavior is a value judgment and a bigoted one at that

            Personally, I don’t eat meat most days and when I do it’s from a LACK of an active choice not to do so, not a choice TO eat meat.

            There’s just not enough meat free alternatives that 1) taste good, 2) are within my means financially, 3) are filling enough AND 4) are within my severely ADHD-reduced ability to focus long enough to cook for myself.

            If someone calls you a carnist, then the word itself is about as insulting as using “vegan” to describe vegans

            As explained above, that’s just not true. An evangelical vegan calling someone who eats meat a “carnist” is more along the lines of a Protestant from Northern Ireland or Scotland calling a Catholic a “fucking papist”.

            It’s a sectarian slur, basically.

            Whatever derogatory meaning “evangelical” vegans put behind it is inferred from context or tone, not the word itself.

            Except for the fact that it’s only used in a derogatory context and tone, just like all other slurs.

            • door_in_the_face@feddit.nl
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              Or maybe your opinion on what the term means is influenced by your biases about what vegans are like and act like towards carnists? If you interact with vegans on a friendly basis rather than assuming that they’re trying to insult you or that they’re calling your choices morally repugnant, you may find that it’soften used descriptively rather than to pass judgement. I have personally seen the term used neutrally more often than I’ve seen it used insultingly. It was also not coined as a slur: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnism by the way, Melany Joy was describing exactly what you mentioned: The pervasiveness of carnism, which makes it an unconscious automatism for many people.

              • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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                Or maybe your opinion on what the term means is influenced by your biases experiences about what vegans are like and act like towards carnists people who eat meat?

                Fixed that for you. Framed like that, the answer is yes: not all vegans are bigots, of course, that would ironically be a bigoted and untrue claim.

                All proselytizing evangelical vegans I’ve ever been in contact with, many of which have been om Lemmy, have either used the word “carnist” as a slur or not at all. With the possible exception of you, though I’m not at all sold on that based on your denials of reality so far.

                If you interact with vegans on a friendly basis rather than assuming that they’re trying to insult you or that they’re calling your choices morally repugnant

                I never assume in advance. As I said, not all vegans are bigots. None of the few I know IRL are. A LOT of the ones here on Lemmy are, though, and they’re always the ones to initiate conflict since I frankly have better things to do with my life than go actively looking for things to be offended by. Unlike said evangelical vegans.

                you may find that it’soften used descriptively rather than to pass judgement.

                Even if that was the case, that’s still misleading as, like I’ve already explained, not being vegan isn’t any more of an ism than being atheist is a religion.

                I have personally seen the term used neutrally more often than I’ve seen it used insultingly

                Even if not used deliberately as an insult, it’s inherently non-neutral as it infers a belief system that isn’t there in 99% of cases and simultaneously lumps everyone who’s not vegan together in one group like a fundamentalist religious person would lump everyone who’s not a follower of their religion together as “heathens” and “apostates”.

                It was also not coined as a slur

                It was coined by a vegan activist to generalize about a lot of people who don’t themselves consider their lack of veganism a belief system. That Wikipedia article is about as biased towards support for the topic as the one about Israel 🙄

                It’s a slur coined to lump people who have nothing meaningful in common together in order to make them easier to attack. It’s the equivalent of calling undocumented immigrants “illegal aliens”.

                • door_in_the_face@feddit.nl
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                  That’s the tricky thing with biases, right? They’re formed by our experiences. My experience interacting with vegans has clearly been different from yours, so that may explain why you would think I’m denying reality. Anyway, I hope you can keep an open mind when talking to vegans who use the word carnist. Not all of them are bigots :)

          • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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            Yeah, THEY can accurately be described as “carnist”, unlike the rest of us.

            They’re a tiny minority that DO elevate meat eating to an ism.

            See the difference?

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                If you don’t see the difference between eating meat at all and not just ONLY eating meat, but portraying eating vegetables as a moral failing, then I just can’t help you.

                I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.

          • Freefall@lemmy.world
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            Yeah, people hurt themselves to own the people they disagree with…but I am pretty sure we are supposed to be omnivores…I don’t think carnivore works for us. #NotAnExpert

            • samus12345@lemmy.world
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              11 days ago

              We are omnivorous by nature, but we can do fine without eating meat if we get the protein from elsewhere.

  • VeganPizza69 Ⓥ@lemmy.world
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    Some things are so horrible and evil that it’s difficult to ridicule them, it requires a lot of creativity.

    Carnism isn’t one, carnism is an academic term, and carnist just means “a proponent of carnism” (it may be in some dictionaries already).

    https://www.carnismdebunked.com/

    Deal with it, meatflakes.

  • arisunz@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    first time i heard someone using the term carnists it was being used as an insult and i was so confused because “wait why are vegans mad at carnivals now?”

    • vanderbilt@lemmy.world
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      I once had a fling with a vegan girl who referred to me as a “carnie”, intending it to be a jab at me. Having worked in a carnival for several years I found it hilarious she tried to make it an insult.

  • TotallynotJessica@lemmy.world
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    Not a vegan, but you’re an asshole. People recognize a genuine problem with an industry that contributes massively to climate change, antibiotic resistance, and environmental destruction, and you’re mocking them? That’s some South Park level shittyness/stupidity. Maybe one day you’ll realize vegans have a point, but you probably won’t own up to how much harm your attitude caused.

    GTFO. You aren’t welcome here.

    Edit: thank you for editing the post. It really wasn’t clear that it was meant to mock a shitty subset of vegans when you first posted it rather than the entire movement. I 100% agree that those people can be snobbish dicks.

    • spujb@lemmy.cafeOP
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      when on earth did i say i wasn’t vegan or disagreed with them :) i simply think the words are objectively very funny

      edit: but taking your criticism to heart, ive just now edited the meme to be less acerbic and to better reflect my intention. thank you for sharing your thoughts. i don’t mean to be hurtful, just shining a light on the silly stuff in the world.

      • TotallynotJessica@lemmy.world
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        You’re right. They can be oh so holier-than-thou about an individual choice that can’t practically solve the problem. I saw your comment about vegans not harming anyone(even though those vegans harm by being mean), and assumed you were a chud. It’s really important for all of us to be more clear about our intentions. If we aren’t, it invites reactionaries to feel comfortable here.

        • TotallynotJessica@lemmy.world
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          Nah, I love meat. I just eat it without any illusions that it’s not fucked up. Ultimately, many people can’t afford to not eat animal products. Being a vegan is expensive in time and money, which is why lower income people aren’t as commonly vegan. It’s possible for them, but it does take a ton of time and effort.

          Things are this way because the full cost of the meat industry get passed off to the public as negative externalities. It’s the same way with the fossil fuel industry. Chevron doesn’t pay for the harm caused by greenhouse gasses in the same way that the meat industry doesn’t pay for the diseases their industry spawns, the increased agricultural production to feed livestock that cuts down forests, or the fucking cow farts spewing methane.

          Mocking vegans has the same energy as mocking renewable energy. It’s not as bad, but only because we aren’t as totally reliant on meat. Our current society cannot function on renewable energy. We’d need to effectively degrow to reach net zero, and markets will never do that. Average people cannot solve this problem by going vegan or getting solar, but that doesn’t mean it’s bad to do those things.

          • Barbarian@sh.itjust.works
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            Being a vegan is expensive in time and money

            I don’t think the second half is true. Despite being subsidized like crazy, meat is still relatively expensive.

            It’s definitely more time-consuming if you wouldn’t be cooking otherwise. At least in my experience if you want to eat something vegan you gotta make it yourself (at least in my home country).

            • Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de
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              i really think it’s just more nuanced. vegan meals can be both cheaper or more expensive, easier or more complex, depending on the specific meal/where you live/time of year/etc etc

              like you can totally just eat whatever plant bits and mushrooms you can get your hands on along with a multivitamin, that will probably be cheap and healthy as hell and the most effort involved is peeling things and spending a few minutes frying or an hour of unattended time stewing it. That is however probably really fucking unappealing for most people, so you have to either spend more effort on making the meals interesting, or spend more money on premade actually appealing vegan products.

              As an autistic person who was viewed as “picky” growing up, and having been raised with the culture of a “meal” consisting of starch/protein/some veggies/TONS of sauce; it’s taken a fair bit of effort to even accept the idea of not having any meat in my food, and i still regularly use stuff like ground pork or chicken breasts in my cooking because it’s just such a simple way to produce food that makes me happy.

              What i really wish would change is the proliferation of more good, simple, tasty, and cheap vegan or at least low-meat frozen food. One of my absolute favourite food products is Felix vegetarian hash, which is just diced potato, onions, soy-based protein chunks, and some seasoning; which you toss in a frying pan with some fat and fry for like 10-15 minutes and it’s done. Costs 7 EUR per kg and tastes really good, it’s human kibble in the best way possible especially if you just add some frozen peas.

              • Barbarian@sh.itjust.works
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                i really think it’s just more nuanced.

                Absolutely! Despite making a short straightforward comment about my own experiences with the time commitment and cost of veganism, I fully understand that it’s more nuanced in my own life, let alone across the breadth of differing human experiences and cultures worldwide.

                One of my absolute favourite food products is Felix vegetarian hash

                I am genuinely glad you managed to find a cheap and tasty food which can at least help you reduce slightly your meat purchases.

          • Teppichbrand@feddit.org
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            11 days ago

            I really dislike non-vegan leftists and environmemtalists, the bullshit, the endless excuses as soon as YOU have to change, not others. Stop eating meat and save 3/4 of landuse, water pollution and co2 emissions.

            • threeduck@aussie.zone
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              10 days ago

              Going vegan is such a money-where-your-mouth-is move. If you’re left enough to know the damage meat eating causes, yet you still eat meat, how are you better than the industries you call out?

              So much right wing bullshit is based on greed, yet left wing meat eaters can’t make the single most significant consumer change because “bacon too yummy lol”.

              All these great left wing youtubers, as soon as I see they’re not vegan my respect drops in half.

    • Clent@lemmy.world
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      12 days ago

      The meme is about this type response. Hilarious.

      Veganism does cause intellectual deficiencies. Did you forget to take your supplements?

      • spujb@lemmy.cafeOP
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        12 days ago

        “The meme is about this type response”

        no it’s not.

        personal attack against their intelligence

        not cool. you should consider logging onto the internet and being kind to people.

        • Clent@lemmy.world
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          12 days ago

          Allowing bad ideas to propagate unchallenged helps no one.

          There are studies behind the negative affects on brain health that occur with vegan diet are not something I made up.

          Unlike the agenda based studies that vegans trot out, there is hard science backing it up.

          • spujb@lemmy.cafeOP
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            12 days ago

            “no you don’t understand, bad ideas have to be challenged that’s why i was forced to personally insult you”

            blocked for being rude. toodles ✌️

      • Incogni@lemmy.world
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        12 days ago

        Your response isn’t any better, to be honest. Yes, there is a certain risk of a negative impact on cognitive performance related to a large and long-time B12 or iron deficiency. But there is a large difference between “you have to take supplements to be healthy” and a blanket claim of “veganism does cause intellectual deficiencies”, especially considering most vegans supplement.

        Side note: the B12 in factory farmed meat is also supplemented to those animals, otherwise their meat wouldn’t contain it, being produced under those conditions. One can only hope all farmers actually do this

        • Hugh_Jeggs@lemm.ee
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          12 days ago

          veganism does cause intellectual deficiencies especially considering so most vegans have to supplement.

          Better?

          • Incogni@lemmy.world
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            12 days ago

            No, since the claim “veganism does cause intellectual deficiencies” is still wrong, because veganism doesn’t cause this, a lack of supplementation does. And most vegans supplement adequately. So saying that veganism “per default” causes this would be dishonest, because it implies that not properly supplementing is the default/intrinsic to veganism, which is not the case.

            It’s like saying “drinking alcohol kills you” just because you have to be mindful of limiting your consumption and it can kill you if you don’t. An extreme statement that contains a kernel of truth, but is simply not correct.

            • Hugh_Jeggs@lemm.ee
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              12 days ago

              Good argument, but it’s still admitting that veganism is completely unsuitable for humans in general, due to (and proven by) the need for supplements

              • Incogni@lemmy.world
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                12 days ago

                How does this follow in any way? You know that the distinction of “supplement” and “regular part of the diet” is completely arbitrary, right? What’s the difference between regular supplementation and the requirement of “having to hydrate” or “eat your greens for your vitamins” to be healthy? It’s even less logical/relevant considering many replacement products add B12 etc on their own by now.

                Also factory farmed animals are getting B12 fed as a supplement, which makes this argument even weirder. “Pills bad/not part of the diet”, but feeding the same pills to pigs and then eating their meat to get the same nutrients is suddenly “ok and natural/good diet”? Doesn’t make sense to me.

  • morphballganon@mtgzone.com
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    12 days ago

    I guess I don’t see the posts you’re referencing.

    Also, I think you meant participates, not precipitates.