i am more than willing to engage on any positive claim you want to make (i probably agree with a lot of them). what i’m not willing to do is tolerate personal attacks and dogpiling.

the movement is growing

google trends says otherwise

it is possible to feed a vegan world, and it would actually be easier

it’s even easier to feed a world with no living creatures. that doesn’t make it desirable

We could grow far more food by repurposing that land.

if that were the case, why aren’t we? it seems there must be a good reason that in the over half decade since this paper’s publication, surely we could have revolutionized our food production. instead, even though veganism saw a steady rise from before the publication of that paper until 2020, it’s been in decline since then. somehow i don’t think that paper captured the whole scope of our agricultural system.

https://lemmy.zip/pictrs/image/5c433cba-a635-48ab-b875-3b5530480e89.webp

this seems to say (near the bottom there) that basically everything a cow eats (52 of 54 units or there about) is either grazed grass or crop residues, with only like 2 or 3 of those units (so about 4-6%, in round numbers) comes from crops grown to feed them. i don’t really know the dietary composition of a chicken or swine, but, cattle, at least, get essentially no direct crops at all.

one calorie of meat requires 6 calories of crops.

ah, but much of the crops that are fed to animals are the byproducts of our own agricultural processes. by feeding them to cattle we get more calories than we would, since we won’t eat, for instance, cottonseeds and corn stalks.

99% of male calves are killed immediately after being born

that’s not true.

I don’t feel that I ever ask you to respond at all. I feel I’ve been right this whole time and you just don’t understand the topic well enough to discuss it. enjoy your vacation.

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so long as i can still choose my own actions, i can’t say that other people’s reactions caused me to act in any way.

at no point have i proposed that the production is desirable, only the consumption.

At this point I really am unsure whether you are just trolling since this is not rocket science.

this is an appeal to ridicule. youre right that it’s not rocket science though: that is provable.

it’s not an analogy. it’s a hypothetical. and in my hypothetical you can see that your proposed causation falls apart. even in your amended version, when do i lose free will?

so to be clear, sometimes meat is a better choice based on convenience.

this sounds like a good experiment. please let me know the results!

you can’t deny that a demand for meat influences the scale of meat production. Everyone in the production and consumption chain has blood on their hands.

“influences” is so weak that i am going to say that you meant “causes”. is this a strawman? maybe. but if you’re argument relies on the ambiguity of “influence” as opposed to the much stronger “cause” then you’re not really saying anything of substance anyway.

so does the decision to eat meat cause meat production in the future? no. a thousand times no. first, and this should be all that needs to be said, farmers and abottoir workers are agents with free will, so their decisions cannot in any meaningful sense be said to be caused by anything except their own will. that should be the beginning and end of it, but consider this additional hypothetical:

if there are three blue pigs in the world, and i kill all three and send them to the butcher shop, when someone buys that pork or bacon or ham, how do we kill more blue pigs? it’s impossible. so we can see that even if people lack free will and there is some economic theory that actually showed some causal link where consumption causes production (which is impossible), then we can see that consumption still can’t actually cause later production in even this one case, but probably many others.

b) most people aren’t in a position where you have such financial pressure (food stamps etc) where you have to weigh calories per cent

i am barely middle class, but i still shop on calories per penny.

Not sure how cooking pea protein sausage is less convenient than cooking a pork sausage.

if you’re cooking it’s probably roughly the same. but if you’re out and about, whether at a drive through or a neighborhood cookout, the meat might just be more convenient.

i never suggested you couldn’t get nutrients other places. but meat is one option for nutrients.